What does Mormonism teach? (1 views)
From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/9/2001 8:33 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)     
 
  112.1  
 
What does Mormonism teach? 
The doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) are very interesting. Most of the 'odd' ones are not initially taught to potential converts. But they should be. Instead, "they are are revealed later as one matures and gains the ability to accept them." The LDS Church tries to make its official doctrines appear Christian but what underlies those Christian sounding terms is far from Christian in meaning. 
Following are the teachings of its officials throughout the years. Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers. 
Finally, many Mormons respond that most of the the citations below are not from official Mormon writings, as if that disproves the doctrines they teach. If they are not official, fine. But, if not, then why have the Mormon apostles and high officials taught them, written them, and why are their books sold in Mormon bookstores? The truth is, the following is what Mormons are taught. 


1. The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration, Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce R. McConkie, p. 635. They teach there was an apostasy and the true church ceased to exist on earth. 
2. We need prophets today, the same as in the Old Testament, Mormon Doctrine, p. 606. 
3. The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, History of the Church, 4:461. 
4. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormon Doctrine, p. 670. 
5. There are many gods, Mormon Doctrine, p. 163. 
6. There is a mother god, Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443. 
7. God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333. 
8. After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354. 
9. God the Father had a Father, Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105. 
10. God resides near a star called Kolob, Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428. 
11. God the Father has a body of flesh and bones, Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22. 
12. God is in the form of a man, Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3. 
13. God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, Mormon Doctrine p. 516. 
14. We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218. 
15. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, Mormon Doctrine, page 129. 
16. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," Mormon Doctrine, page 192. 
17. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, Mormon Doctrine, p. 163. 
18. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8. 
19. God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115. - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it. 
20. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856. 
21. Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92. 
22. There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188. 
23. Baptism for the dead, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 141. This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the "newly baptized" person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven. 
24. There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, Mormon Doctrine, p. 348. 
25. The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, page 118; Journal of Discources, Vol. 5, page 179 


Some Mormons may disagree with a few of the points listed on this page, but all of what is stated here is from Mormon authors in good standing of the Mormon church. 


www.carm.org 
Copyright by Matthew J. Slick, 1998 




In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



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From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/9/2001 9:34 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (2 of 27)  
 
  112.2 in reply to 112.1  
 
I hate to say it, but I do agree with you for once... 
I've read the book of Mormon, just as I have read the OT and NT from cover to cover. It does seem to be a far cry from the religious teachings found in the bible, although the langauge is to the normal onlooker the same the style and meter are wrong, much as if I were to try and write a play in middle english and mimic the bard. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/9/2001 9:39 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (3 of 27)  
 
  112.3 in reply to 112.2  
 
I think most people with a brain can see that Mormonism is not biblical....



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/9/2001 11:27 pm  
To:  ALL   (4 of 27)  
 
  112.4 in reply to 112.1  
 
Blood_Bought (RFI1965) wrote:
The doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) are very interesting. Most of the 'odd' ones are not initially taught to potential converts. But they should be. Instead, "they are are revealed later as one matures and gains the ability to accept them." The LDS Church tries to make its official doctrines appear Christian but what underlies those Christian sounding terms is far from Christian in meaning.
  You keep throwing the word Christian around as if it means much more than it does.  A Christian is anyone who follows Jesus Christ.  All faithful Mormons follow Jesus Christ, therefore we are Christians.  The use of the word Christian to describe specific doctrines, which are accepted by some Christians, but not by some other Christians, is misleading and disingenuous.



Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers. Finally, many Mormons respond that most of the the citations below are not from official Mormon writings, as if that disproves the doctrines they teach. If they are not official, fine. But, if not, then why have the Mormon apostles and high officials taught them, written them, and why are their books sold in Mormon bookstores? The truth is, the following is what Mormons are taught.
  Like all human beings, Mormons, including our leaders, are prone to having individual opinions.  Sometimes, even our leaders get a bit careless about distinguishing between official doctrine and personal opinion.  Bruce R. McConkie is probably the most spectacular example of this.  He wrote a book titled Mormon Doctrine, which contains many statements that are not doctrinal at all.  I understand that he received a fair amount of heat from his fellow high leaders in the church, and under very strong encouragement from them, some of his more controversial claims were removed from later versions of the book.  McConkie was a very brilliant man, and much of this book is a valuable reference for those of us who are well-established in the gospel, but it can be misleading at times, especially to novices, and especially when used by outsiders looking for a source of true LDS doctrine.

  I guess the important point is that there are official sources of doctrine, and anything that is not from these sources, no matter how many people might believe it, or even teach it, is not representative of true LDS doctrine.  Otherwise, any crazy belief you could make up, you could probably find some Mormon in good standing, somewhere, who believes it, and could then represent that as a Mormon belief.

  As for the individual statements, I will grant you one thing:  There is a much lower bulls*** content than is usually found in such collections.

  Statements 1,2,3,11,12,14,21,23, and 23, I will say are true and accurate representations of LDS doctrine, and need no further comment, except to say that they only seem odd because they are different than what you believe.  None of these are secrets, and any Mormon will gladly tell you these things, and explain them in more detail.

  Statement 19 is the only one which I can say is completely false.  We do not believe that God, in physical form, engaged in sexual relations with Mary, and there is no further doctrine concerning the mechanics by which Mary was impregnated other than, as is written in the Bible, that the Holy Ghost had something to do with it, and that she was a virgin up to the time of Jesus' birth.  Our belief in this regard is no different than that of other Christians (except that most of us do not believe, as I am given to understand is taught by the Catholic church, that she remained a virgin all her life; I think most Mormons assume (as do, I expect, most non-Catholic Christians) that once she gave birth to Jesus, that she thereafter had a normal, proper, and healthy relationship with Joseph, her husband).

  Statements 1,6,7,9,13,24, and 25, I do not think are doctrinal, but are logically consistent with our doctrine, and probably assumed by most Mormons to be true.

  The remaining statements are close to correct LDS beliefs, but are worded in ways which are misleading and inaccurate.



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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/9/2001 11:42 pm  
To:  ALL   (6 of 27)  
 
  112.6 in reply to 112.4  
 
BOB: 
A Christian is anyone who follows Jesus Christ. 
RUSS: 
I can follow Jesus till I'm blue in the face but unless I am saved according to the ways HE TAUGHT and according to THE WAY THE BIBLE SAYS, then, then I am NOT a Christian. Following Jesus doesn't mean squat unless you BELIEVE and LIVE BY HIS WORD, as outlined in the BIBLE, not some far out fictional novel written by a man who obviously ate too much peyote. 

As for the accuracy of the information on my post, talk to the person who wrote the information. I post it because I trust it to be accurate. As for your saying you do agree with those that are correct,....this is enough to see that Mormons are NOT Christians because they DO NOT follow Christ. 

I can post much, much more to prove this point but I seldom ever get any answers from Mormons to the more challenging information....They usually just run off or spout rhetoric how much I "hate" people.....



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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Edited 7/10/01 3:23:20 AM ET by RFI1965 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/10/2001 12:52 am  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (7 of 27)  
 
  112.7 in reply to 112.6  
 
Blood_Bought (RFI1965) wrote:
I can follow Jesus till I'm blue in the face but unless I am saved according to the ways HE TAUGHT and according to only THE BIBLE SAYS, then, then I am NOT a Christian. Following Jesus doesn't mean squat unless you BELIEVE and LIVE BY HIS WORD, as outlined in the BIBLE, not some far out fictional novel written by a man who obviously ate too much peyote.
  Have you ever thought about the logical paradox that you, and many other Fundamentalist-type Christians find yourselves in?  You claim that The Holy Bible is the only source of authority, that anything not in the Bible is not Christian Doctrine.  Yet the Bible itself does not claim that it is complete and inerrant, nor does it claim itself to be the only source of authority.  Your claim that the Bible is the only source of authority is unbiblical, and therefore, by your own logic, not authoritative.  Catch22.

  I will further point out that there is not a single sect of Christianity, not one, that doesn't incorporate practices and doctrines which are from sources other than the Bible.  If this were not so, there would not be so many different sects of Christianity, with so many conflicting doctrines and practices.  Every sect of Christianity has had to employ sources of doctrine and authority outside of the Bible.  For us Mormons, these sources come from additional scripture, as well as from God by way of his living prophets.  For the rest of you, these come from man-made interpolations, from heathen creeds, from the vagaries of religious politics.  I'm not being very diplomatic; I'm not good at being diplomatic; but the irony of this whole thing is not lost on me.  From your man-made sources of additional doctrine and authority, you condemn us Mormons because we have additional sources of guidance from God himself, and we put more trust in these sources than in your man-made sources.



As for the accuracy of the information on my post, talk to the person who wrote the information. I post it because I trust it to be accurate.
  Who should you trust more to tell you what Mormons believe  an outsider who has an agenda against us, or the word of a genuine, real, live, Mormon?  Who is better qualified to tell you what I believe than I myself?  If I tell you that I believe X, and someone else tells you, No, Bob doesn' t believe X; he believes Y., who is telling the truth?



As for your saying you do agree with those that are correct,....this is enough to see that Mormons are NOT Christians because they DO NOT follow Christ.
  That simply doesn't stand to reason.  None of the beliefs which I have acknowledged mean that I do not follow Christ.  Indeed, in these beliefs, I assert that I am following Christ far more closely than you are, having much better guidance than you have as to the direction in which he is trying to lead me.



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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/10/2001 1:21 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (8 of 27)  
 
  112.8 in reply to 112.7  
 
BOB: 
Yet the Bible itself does not claim that it is complete and inerrant, nor does it claim itself to be the only source of authority. 
RUSS: 
ummm...you're kidding, right? What kind of a Christian would eeven think such a stupid thing? Do you even read it? I mean the BIBLE, not that fictional book! I mean the Word of God. How can you say that God's word is anything BUT innerrant? It DOES say it is all of these things.....Sheeeeeeeeeesh! 

2 Pe 1:19-21 
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 

Heb 4:12 
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 

Jam 1:18 
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. 

Joh 5:39 
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 

1Co 15:3-4 
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 

2Ti 3:16-17 
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 

Psa 12:6-7 
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. 

Psa 119:140 
Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it. 

Pro 30:5 
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 

Joh 17:17 
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 

Psa 19:7 
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 

Rom 15:4 
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. 

Deu 12:32 
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. 

1Th 2:13 
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 

Psa 119:42 
So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word. 

Now that we've established God's word is perfect, divinely inspired, and from God Himself, we can move on.... 

BOB: 
I will further point out that there is not a single sect of Christianity, not one, that doesn't incorporate practices and doctrines which are from sources other than the Bible. If this were not so, there would not be so many different sects of Christianity, with so many conflicting doctrines and practices. 

RUSS: 
Hogwash....if there were anything done in my church that was NOT supported by scripture, I would not stick around. 

BOB: 
For us Mormons, these sources come from additional scripture, as well as from God by way of his living prophets. 

RUSS: 
Additional scripture? 
Hmmmm...I'll just let that one stink on it's own potty...We've already established that GOD said there would be NOTHING added to His INERRANT word.... 

BOB: 
For the rest of you, these come from man-made interpolations, from heathen creeds, from the vagaries of religious politics. I'm not being very diplomatic; I'm not good at being diplomatic; but the irony of this whole thing is not lost on me. From your man-made sources of additional doctrine and authority, you condemn us Mormons because we have additional sources of guidance from God himself, and we put more trust in these sources than in your man-made sources. 

RUSS: 
When you mature in Christ and stop throwing around stupidities and hogwash and when you are able to carry on a conversation without propaganda and lies, false claims and exagerrations, we can carry on. 
NO additional, outside of the bible doctrines are in my faith....Like I said, If they were, I would not be in it. 

BOB: 
Who should you trust more to tell you what Mormons believe  an outsider who has an agenda against us, or the word of a genuine, real, live, Mormon? 

RUSS: 
Stop, you're gonna make me laugh so hard I might have an accident...Mormons wouldn't know the truth if it jumped out in front of you...YOU don't even know the whole truth of the Mormon church unless you are in clergy....are you? 

BOB: 
I assert that I am following Christ far more closely than you are, having much better guidance than you have as to the direction in which he is trying to lead me. 

RUSS: 
You can "assert" all you like but since you have no clue what you're talking about, you assertions are as sound as your doctrine.... 




In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/10/2001 12:43 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (9 of 27)  
 
  112.9 in reply to 112.1  
 
Hi: 
Thanks for taking the time to post what you have about Mormon Doctrine and beliefs. It is very tedious to refute heretical teachings, point by point. You did a very good job condensing the major differences into something readable. 
R/C 
 
  
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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/10/2001 12:45 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (10 of 27)  
 
  112.10 in reply to 112.9  
 
You should thank Matt Slick...it is his work, not mine. 
He and I have had the pleasure of speaking several times together.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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Spirit-Filled Christian
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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/11/2001 5:50 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (11 of 27)  
 
  112.11 in reply to 112.8  
 
Blood_Bought (RFI1965) wrote:
BOB:
Yet the Bible itself does not claim that it is complete and inerrant, nor does it claim itself to be the only source of authority.

RUSS:
ummm...you're kidding, right? What kind of a Christian would eeven think such a stupid thing? Do you even read it? I mean the BIBLE, not that fictional book! I mean the Word of God. How can you say that God's word is anything BUT innerrant? It DOES say it is all of these things

[Snip a long collection of Bible quotes.]

Now that we've established God's word is perfect, divinely inspired, and from God Himself, we can move on....
  Keep in mind that the Holy Bible as we know if did not exist when any of the text within it was written.  The gathering of all these texts into a single volume did not take place until many, many centuries after the last of it was written.  It is not logical, therefore, to suppose that anything said in any one scriptural passage refers to this specific, unified collection of all these separate writings as it was compiled much later.  Nothing in these scriptures even predicts the gathering process which later would occur, to create the Holy Bible as we know it today; much less gives us any guarantee that this process would be carried out perfectly, and that the product of it would contain all that God ever needed to tell us.

  As I am sure I pointed out in another thread, the Bible contains references to other holy writings, which are not now contained in the Bible, and which are, in fact, lost to us  proof that the Bible is not the complete word of God.



BOB:
I will further point out that there is not a single sect of Christianity, not one, that doesn't incorporate practices and doctrines which are from sources other than the Bible. If this were not so, there would not be so many different sects of Christianity, with so many conflicting doctrines and practices.

RUSS:
Hogwash....if there were anything done in my church that was NOT supported by scripture, I would not stick around.
  Supported by the Bible does not mean the same thing as From the Bible.  I assume that in your sunday services, a minister delivers a sermon.  Is this sermon read entirely out of the Bible, or does the speaker include commentary of his own, including his opinions about what is written, what it means, and how it applies?  Like it or not, any additional content is not biblical; it is the opinions of a man.  I'm not saying that this is bad, necessarily, but it is unbiblical.  It is content which becomes part of your belief system, and which does not come from the Bible which you claim as the only legitimate source of such content.



We've already established that GOD said there would be NOTHING added to His INERRANT word....
  I do not agree that this has been established.  Where did God say this?



Mormons wouldn't know the truth if it jumped out in front of you...YOU don't even know the whole truth of the Mormon church unless you are in clergy....are you?
  What whole truth of the Mormon church is it that you think you know, and that you think I do not know?  Your question about whether or not I am in the clergy reveals, I think, that you know very little about the Mormon church yourself.  The Mormon church does not have a clergy, in quite the same sense that most churches do.  Nearly all active Mormon men, including myself, are part of what constitutes the Mormon clergy.



You can "assert" all you like but since you have no clue what you're talking about, you assertions are as sound as your doctrine....
  I think that you know nothing at all about Mormonism, other than what you have read from a few anti-Mormon propaganda sources.  As an active Mormon, a member of its priesthood, and a participant in some of its most sacred ceremonies, I certainly know what I am talking about.



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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 6:12 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (12 of 27)  
 
  112.12 in reply to 112.11  
 
Ok Bob.... 
You're right, I'm wrong. 
Can you let go of my neck now? 
Your rejection of the word of God is noted.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



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Vsit My Family Website 
 
 

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/11/2001 9:44 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (13 of 27)  
 
  112.13 in reply to 112.12  
 
Blood_Bought (RFI1965) wrote:
Your rejection of the word of God is noted.
  I have not rejected the word of God.  I only assert that the Holy Bible does not contain all that God has ever said or will ever say to Mankind, and that the Bible itself doesn't even claim otherwise.  You have yet to disprove this assertion. 



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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    7/11/2001 9:55 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (14 of 27)  
 
  112.14 in reply to 112.8  
 
So, acording to your statements, Catholics [the original Christians] are NOT Christians? 
You confuse me here. 
Please expound on this theory?


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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 9:56 pm  
To:  Rowan (POTIONS)    (15 of 27)  
 
  112.15 in reply to 112.14  
 
The orignal Christians were Catholics? 
ROTFLOL!!!! 
Ummm, no....they were Jews. 

Any more insights?



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    7/11/2001 10:32 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (16 of 27)  
 
  112.16 in reply to 112.15  
 
The Church suposedly started by the Apostile was the Catholic church and all Sects derived from persons who decided to rebel against its teachings. Yes the Apostile was a Jew, but The Christian Church first named as such was Catholic. [ and no I am NOT Catholic]

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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/11/2001 10:53 pm  
To:  Rowan (POTIONS)   unread  (17 of 27)  
 
  112.17 in reply to 112.16  
 
ROWAN: 
The Christian Church first named as such was Catholic... 
RUSS: 
ummmmm....no, it wasn't.... 
Let's look to the scriptures, shall we? 

And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. 
Acts 11:26 

Now...unless you have some kind of documentation to prove otherwise, I would say your information is undoubtedly incorrect.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/12/2001 5:14 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (18 of 27)  
 
  112.18 in reply to 112.17  
 
<<<And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:26>>> 
Just hear me out on this. 

Antioch was part of the Roman Empire. Considering Antioch at the time in history in which Acts was written was home to people like Polycarp and Ignatius (Bishop of Antioch), it was indeed part of the early Church of Rome. True, the Catholic Church as we know it today hadn't formed yet, but it had presence in Rome since the first Pope after St. Peter according to Church record was Pope Linus (roughly 64-79 A.D.). 

Most of the Catholic Church's later doctrine was based off of what their scholars had found in Antioch since that formally Greek city had knowledge of the teachings of Jesus probably soon after he started his ministry. 

In short, Antioch was the first place where Christians were called "Christian", however the Catholic Church was the first large, organized group to take the name. Even the people of Antioch had problems with the new religion for a time. So, technically, you're both right. 

When, precisely on the world's timeline, the term "Christian" fell into common usage is, however, debatable. 
A good source on the history of Antioch can be found here: 
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01567a.htm 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/12/2001 5:36 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (19 of 27)  
 
  112.19 in reply to 112.18  
 
First, Antioch was in Turkey...not Greece. 
Second, the Catholics were most definitely not the first Christians, Jews were and even afterwards, were not Catholics. They had many names. 
I wll concede that what we presently know of the early church is limited but there are new findings every day that are leading biblical scholars to more truths...Perhaps this will put an end to the "Catholics were the first church" teachings....



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ



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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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   From:  Dr_Shock   7/12/2001 5:54 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (20 of 27)  
 
  112.20 in reply to 112.19  
 
<<<First, Antioch was in Turkey...not Greece.>>> 
I never said Antioch was in Greece. I said it was a formally Greek city. Antioch was nothing until the Greek empire took them over. The Greeks are what made Antioch a trade city and that opened the road for which Christianity would filter in during the Roman occupation.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/12/2001 5:56 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (21 of 27)  
 
  112.21 in reply to 112.20  
 
OK... 
This still does not support the false claim that Catholics were the first church....The FIRST church WAS in antioch and in Antioch were Christians.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/12/2001 6:00 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (22 of 27)  
 
  112.22 in reply to 112.21  
 
<<<This still does not support the false claim that Catholics were the first church....The FIRST church WAS in antioch and in Antioch were Christians.>>> 
I never said it did. Antioch was the first church and the first place where Christians were called Christian, but the Catholic Church was the first place to use it on a mass level. It all depends on where one believes the history of the Church begins, I suppose.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/12/2001 6:05 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (23 of 27)  
 
  112.23 in reply to 112.22  
 
The bible tells us where the church began.... 
Antioch.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  M_DAuvergne   7/20/2001 2:42 pm  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (24 of 27)  
 
  112.24 in reply to 112.23  
 
OK! Great. The first christians were in Antioch. Wonderful. 
What was the point of this argument again? 

Now, could we get back into what Mormonism teaches? 

Also, I really don't see the point of bashing Mormons on this board, and Mr. Baylock has you beat on every corner, logically anyway. Why do you even care? What is the point?

Je te remercie! 

~M. D'Auvergne
 
  
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  From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   7/20/2001 4:15 pm  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (25 of 27)  
 
  112.25 in reply to 112.24  
 
I don't.



In the name of Yeshua haMashiach,
God bless you,
Russ

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And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
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  From:  M_DAuvergne   8/1/2001 7:57 am  
To:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   (26 of 27)  
 
  112.26 in reply to 112.25  
 
You don't....what? 
Y'know, sentance fragments dont' really get the point across.

Je te remercie! 

~M. D'Auvergne
 
  
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   From:  Blood_Bought (RFI1965)   8/1/2001 12:39 pm  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (27 of 27)  
 
  112.27 in reply to 112.26  
 
Y'know, if you just followed the conversation you'd get your answer...



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God bless you,
Russ


 

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